A Local Pastor And A Local Atheist Debate The Upcoming Presidential Election — Prophecies Fulfilled?

May 6, 2016

Rev. Dr. William C. Myers

Senior Pastor at Presbyterian Church of Traverse City.

Twenty years ago I’d watch the "Jerry Springer Show" and laugh. Not a healthy laugh; more a "shaking the head in disbelief " smirk, the kind reserved for carnival midways. A mix of amusement and disdain. Today I no longer laugh. The world of Jerry Springer is our world!

The primaries have made this clear. Regardless of who is on the ballot, this year’s presidential election will be a choice between two evils. The most dominant candidate to date bears a remarkable resemblance to President Snow of The Hunger Games with the hair of Caesar Flickerman.

Some believe the rise of "The Donald" signifies the implosion of the Republican Party. For them, a Trump nomination means the end of a moderate conservative voice. While John Kasich comes closest to such a voice, his inability to capture the widespread support of the party suggests they are right. Many Democrats and Republicans would agree. This is a sad state of affairs.

While I share their immediate concern, I also wonder"¦ Could this be part of God’s prophetic act of redemption? The Hebrew Scriptures are filled with examples of national decline arising whenever God’s people ignored God’s will. "How the faithful city has become a whore! She that was full of justice, righteousness lodged in her – but now murderers!" (Isaiah 1:21-22)

The good news is the judgment these prophecies foretell leads to redemption! "You shall no more be termed Forsaken, and your land shall no more be termed Desolate; but you shall be called My Delight Is in Her"¦for the LORD delights in you"¦" (Isaiah 62:4)

GARY’S RESPONSE

What Bill and other religious people view as prophecies fulfilled appear to me as nothing more than the natural outcome of human behavior. It doesn’t require a prophetic skillset to foresee that a civilization will decline when its leaders ignore the needs of its people.

Moreover, when we elevate those with superior financial status to positions of authority and demand that candidates raise hundreds of millions of dollars in order to contend, we eliminate 99 percent of the population from consideration. Odds are we will be left with poor choices, and here we are.

Prophesies from thousands of years ago are worth little. Some correlations will come to fruition simply from dumb luck. Most will fade into oblivion as they naturally avoid coincidental occurrence. If anyone who predicts future social trauma resulting from inept political leadership is to be considered a prophet, I suspect most of us would qualify. I would advise those who want to see change to become active and not rely upon hope, scriptures, or the intercession of a supernatural force. When has that ever worked?

Gary Singer

Gary helps businesses with their Internet marketing. He was raised a Catholic.

Having witnessed presidential elections since the Eisenhower years, I firmly believe this nation has finally reached the tipping point. Along with the increase in social stratification toward extremes throughout the U.S. and the rest of the world (85 men on Earth now control as much wealth as half of the world’s population) has come a corresponding increase in social unrest. It’s about time.

It’s time we recognize that the only way there is going to be a return to a more prosperous and evenly distributed economy is with radical adjustments in our leadership. You might be able to pray or meditate your way to a positive outlook, serenity, and personal relaxation; but no amount of prayer or biblical consultation can help here. What is needed supersedes any of that. I despair for my children’s future in a way that my parents never could have imagined.

The enormous attention being paid to "outsider" candidates such as Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders should serve as a warning that we are closer to upheaval than at any time since the Vietnam War. Our government, a substantial and powerful machine, is a locomotive in overdrive heading directly toward a mountain with no tunnel. Furthermore, we did this to ourselves. Collectively, we have all enabled the rise of big money while government services such as education and health care continue to be reduced.

I wish the solution was as easy as convincing some god to intercede. That is fantasy, pure and simple. Those of us who truly want change must become active and help support it. The alternative is anarchy, an outcome that should not be surprising.

BILL’S RESPONSE

Gary and I agree that what is occurring in the current electoral process is a sign of increasing social unrest which, if left unchecked, will result in increasing cultural upheaval and human suffering. Gary is right. "We did this to ourselves."

What Gary doesn’t see is biblical prophets have made similar predictions for generations. When the people listened, repented, and returned to God, they were redeemed. No one is calling for mystical hocus pocus. Cultural change won’t come easy. But it won’t come at all unless we return to God. "Seek the LORD while he may be found; call upon him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake their way and the unrighteous their thoughts; let them return to the LORD, that he may have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon." (Isaiah 55:6-7)"

Though Gary and Bill do not agree on the source, both believe that the current political situation, with its inherent inequalities, is a sign that social change is necessary and forthcoming.